Effective Company Culture and Employee Satisfaction: Mike McDonald’s Approach

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In this episode of the Business Superfan Podcast, Michael McDonald, a recruiting industry veteran, shares his insights on building a strong company culture to attract and retain talent. He draws parallels between sports team recruitment and corporate hiring, emphasizing the assessment of skills and potential. The host and Michael discuss the importance of aligning candidates’ personalities with company culture and the costly consequences of poor hiring decisions.

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Transcript
Freddy D:

Welcome to the business superfan podcast.

Freddy D:

Our guest today is Michael McDonald with M W M search.

Freddy D:

Welcome, Michael.

Mike McDonald:

Hey, thank you, Freddie.

Mike McDonald:

Appreciate it.

Mike McDonald:

Thanks for having me on.

Freddy D:

So Michael, tell us about how you got started

Freddy D:

into the recruiting industry.

Mike McDonald:

Fred, how much time do we have here?

Mike McDonald:

I guess a half hour, right?

Mike McDonald:

Well, let me kind of bring it down and synthesize it.

Mike McDonald:

Started while I was in school, I took a position in retail and

Mike McDonald:

that helped me pay my tuition.

Mike McDonald:

And so as a retail salesperson, and so after school, after I got my degree,

Mike McDonald:

I, found a company, a family owned business, and they had 20 stores in

Mike McDonald:

the Midwest, Wisconsin, Illinois.

Mike McDonald:

That's where I'm originally from in Chicago.

Mike McDonald:

And so I, took a position with them and started as an assistant store manager, and

Mike McDonald:

then I moved into retail store manager.

Mike McDonald:

But I saw that it was a family owned business.

Mike McDonald:

So I wanted to move up in the company.

Mike McDonald:

And I realized pretty quickly that the culture wasn't gonna allow that they were

Mike McDonald:

going to hire people and their family.

Mike McDonald:

So that's what drove me to actually find my second position, which, working

Mike McDonald:

for a meat company in Illinois, right.

Mike McDonald:

And, I'll tie all this together in the meat company, wanted to get into retail.

Mike McDonald:

They wanted to sell wholesale.

Mike McDonald:

So they need a sales guy that had a personality to go out, talk

Mike McDonald:

with retail people and sell them.

Mike McDonald:

At the time it was, you know, sliced beef and things of that nature, right?

Mike McDonald:

So I did that for a while and then the company changed direction.

Mike McDonald:

So I was, well, I think they used to call it, they used to call it

Mike McDonald:

rightsizing when they let you go.

Mike McDonald:

And I couldn't figure out who it was right for because it

Mike McDonald:

certainly wasn't right for me.

Mike McDonald:

And I guess it was right for them, right?

Mike McDonald:

So, the next position I found was through a recruiting call and they

Mike McDonald:

kept casting me out to find a job.

Mike McDonald:

And I'd come in as a strong second.

Mike McDonald:

Because I didn't have the technical back.

Mike McDonald:

Eventually, they liked my tenacity.

Mike McDonald:

So they said, hey, have you ever thought of being a recruiter?

Mike McDonald:

You have to deal with a lot of rejection.

Mike McDonald:

So, I said no, I hadn't.

Mike McDonald:

So, they gave me a book on CNC cam and I learned the terminology and I talked to

Mike McDonald:

anybody that talked to me and learned how to think what was required in the skills.

Mike McDonald:

And that led me after a while, the company that hired me split up the two partners.

Mike McDonald:

And so I formed a partnership and that was my first opportunity

Mike McDonald:

to be in my own business.

Mike McDonald:

I had it with my partner, and we did that for about eight years.

Mike McDonald:

It was CAD CAM specialists.

Mike McDonald:

So we were in the computer graphics industry.

Freddy D:

That's where you and I met.

Freddy D:

You placed me in a couple of, positions over those years.

Freddy D:

I mean, decades ago.

Mike McDonald:

And we're still talking.

Freddy D:

Yes.

Mike McDonald:

So, there you go.

Mike McDonald:

So what that led me to, I had that business for about eight years.

Mike McDonald:

And then we decided to split for various reasons.

Mike McDonald:

And I started my own business, but what I have to say is when I look at my career

Mike McDonald:

and I went over this a little bit, I thought, you know, there's some common

Mike McDonald:

threads here that , I've always, what kept me motivated and moving forward.

Mike McDonald:

And then we'll talk about this today.

Mike McDonald:

And when I could, you know, number one, I liked helping people.

Mike McDonald:

So all the positions that I had was kind of a helping position.

Mike McDonald:

I like creativity and I like problem solving and that's

Mike McDonald:

what selling is in many ways.

Mike McDonald:

And I like the ownership, right?

Mike McDonald:

So those are the themes that I look at that have been drivers

Mike McDonald:

for me in my business and brought me to where I'm at 28 years now.

Mike McDonald:

Recruiting

Mike McDonald:

That's a long time to be in that career.

Mike McDonald:

I mean, most people don't last that long in those type of careers.

Mike McDonald:

So, you know, that's I think it's something about your integrity.

Mike McDonald:

In the way you've handled people.

Mike McDonald:

And like I say, I have personal experience because I think you placed me in at least

Mike McDonald:

5 different organizations back in the day.

Mike McDonald:

And you always, gave me good advice, gave me good direction, and I always

Mike McDonald:

got the W, and I always got the job.

Mike McDonald:

So, you know, my thank you's back to you, because you helped , my career.

Mike McDonald:

Another reason I'm happy with what I do.

Mike McDonald:

I like helping people.

Mike McDonald:

That's great.

Freddy D:

It shows.

Freddy D:

It comes across.

Freddy D:

I mean, like I say, we've known each other for decades.

Freddy D:

So, what strategies do businesses, use or should use to attract

Freddy D:

the most talented employees?

Mike McDonald:

Well, I think companies that are very good at building the kind

Mike McDonald:

of culture and value proposition that people want to be a part of, right?

Mike McDonald:

So it's that culture that builds that.

Mike McDonald:

And I think of it in terms of, well, in terms of sports, , you know, recruiting

Mike McDonald:

an individual for a sports team, the first you're going to look at first element is

Mike McDonald:

going to look at somebody that has the skills, right, to perform, but you're

Mike McDonald:

also looking at performance skills.

Mike McDonald:

So there's two components.

Mike McDonald:

There's the technical skills.

Mike McDonald:

Can you throw a ball up?

Mike McDonald:

But then there's a performance.

Mike McDonald:

How do you interact?

Mike McDonald:

How do you feed out?

Mike McDonald:

How do you work?

Mike McDonald:

And in situations that are always changing dynamic and they also the

Mike McDonald:

third component that I think sports teams use or look for his potential.

Mike McDonald:

Potential is key and especially because you have to build different

Mike McDonald:

layers of capabilities, but you have to find the potential.

Mike McDonald:

And I look at you and your career, Freddie, I think, you know, who was the

Mike McDonald:

one that saw when you were an application engineer, you talk about this in your

Mike McDonald:

book that said, Hey, you know, I see a lot of similarities to a sales position.

Mike McDonald:

We're looking to fill because Freddie's got tenacity.

Mike McDonald:

He can overcome your job as an application engineer.

Mike McDonald:

You learn how to overcome objections.

Mike McDonald:

You learn how to solve problems, right, deal with different,

Mike McDonald:

read different systems when you're presenting information.

Mike McDonald:

The only thing that holds a lot of people back in making a transition

Mike McDonald:

from an application engineer to a salesperson is something that you

Mike McDonald:

don't have, and they have, and that is, they don't ask for the order.

Mike McDonald:

They keep talking about the technology, and this is that, and this is all great.

Mike McDonald:

Wait, let's get to the bottom line.

Mike McDonald:

We have something to sell, let's sell it.

Mike McDonald:

And that's something that someone saw.

Mike McDonald:

They saw that potential in you.

Mike McDonald:

And as a result, they made millions of dollars.

Mike McDonald:

So that's a good example.

Mike McDonald:

I think I also think about what, Jim Collins and maybe you read his book,

Mike McDonald:

you know, Good to Great, great book.

Mike McDonald:

And, I'll quote Jim, he goes, one of the things that leaders can do

Mike McDonald:

to put their company on the path of greatness, or at least the path of

Mike McDonald:

being a great being greater than just good, is to hire the right people.

Mike McDonald:

If you hire the right people, you're going to have the right culture development.

Mike McDonald:

And also, every time you hire someone in your company, you're determining the

Mike McDonald:

path that your company is going to take.

Mike McDonald:

Is it going to be an average company?

Mike McDonald:

Cause I'm hiring average people.

Mike McDonald:

Is it going to be a good company?

Mike McDonald:

Or is it going to be a great company?

Mike McDonald:

So I think those are important things to look at.

Mike McDonald:

So attracting, keeping people, attracting people is the culture now.

Freddy D:

Oh absolutely.

Freddy D:

I 100 percent agree with that.

Freddy D:

Because you look at a business and if you really own the business, you

Freddy D:

should be able to walk away from that business and that business

Freddy D:

should be able to run by itself.

Freddy D:

And if it cannot run by itself, but a team you've got in place,

Freddy D:

you really have a glorified job.

Freddy D:

I mean, that, that's the reality of it.

Freddy D:

And so it's not a business, it's a glorified job, but if you're absolutely

Freddy D:

100%, if you got a team, that's got a good culture and they're credible people,

Freddy D:

they care about the company because they know the company cares about them.

Freddy D:

They'll take care of the business.

Freddy D:

They'll take care of the customers, they'll handle it and

Freddy D:

you don't have to worry about it.

Freddy D:

So a hundred percent agree.

Mike McDonald:

Right.

Freddy D:

So how can managers ensure that their employees are satisfied, and that's

Freddy D:

a perfect segue, and motivated at work, so that, they become superfans of the company

Freddy D:

that they're working for, and they're sharing that with, their friends, their

Freddy D:

families, and associates that they know.

Mike McDonald:

Well, here again, you hire motivated people, you onboard them.

Mike McDonald:

And you don't be motivated back to culture again, hire the right people

Mike McDonald:

hire people that are motivated.

Mike McDonald:

I think we have to agree that most people are motivated in what

Mike McDonald:

direction and in what way and it comes from the culture, how it

Mike McDonald:

directs people, how it values people.

Mike McDonald:

So, when you're interviewing people, you're looking not just for the skills,

Mike McDonald:

but you're looking for performance because past behavior is a better

Mike McDonald:

predictor of future performance.

Mike McDonald:

So if you want to get motivated people, satisfied people, employees,

Mike McDonald:

and keep them motivated, you hire them right once from the beginning.

Mike McDonald:

I think about this particular, this one individual that I placed as a VP of sales.

Mike McDonald:

And, when he went in, he was told one thing.

Mike McDonald:

And then several weeks later, he was still trying to find his compensation

Mike McDonald:

package, still trying to get direction.

Mike McDonald:

And the CEO of the company and the CFO of the company were at odds.

Mike McDonald:

And it was really demotivating him.

Mike McDonald:

And so finally he called me up and I said, you need to face this, you need

Mike McDonald:

to call the CEO, tell him where you're feeling, get it out and talk about it.

Mike McDonald:

Communication is really important.

Mike McDonald:

Help people work through things.

Mike McDonald:

You know, the estimate is 70 percent of new hires, or hires,

Mike McDonald:

determine whether they're going to leave a company, within six months.

Mike McDonald:

70 percent of people will determine whether they're

Mike McDonald:

going to stay with the company.

Mike McDonald:

So that onboarding and that support is so important.

Mike McDonald:

Some companies have it or they don't hire you and they put you

Mike McDonald:

in a position and then you don't hear from unless there's an issues.

Freddy D:

Can you share a story of how you helped a company, sort

Freddy D:

of identify the type of individual that they would be looking for?

Mike McDonald:

That's what I do for all the time, Freddie.

Freddy D:

Well, that's what I want you to share.

Freddy D:

I know that you do that all the time.

Freddy D:

Share how you go about doing that.

Mike McDonald:

Thank you, I can say it in, in three words.

Mike McDonald:

Skills, personality, culture.

Mike McDonald:

So how do you go about hiring people as you sit down and look at the skills you

Mike McDonald:

need, but that's, I've hired people.

Mike McDonald:

I have to say that we're 70 percent of the skills required.

Mike McDonald:

I've never hired a 100 percent person in my career.

Mike McDonald:

I've hired lots of people for, and what makes a difference is

Mike McDonald:

those second two components.

Mike McDonald:

Having the right personality traits, how a person's wired, and then

Mike McDonald:

secondly, and next, having the culture, take a person out of one culture,

Mike McDonald:

put them in another, and you're not going to have the same value.

Mike McDonald:

And I can refer you to this book, it's called The Gods of Management,

Mike McDonald:

and it's a great book, it talks about culture, it talks about how

Mike McDonald:

you feel, and how you're valued.

Mike McDonald:

And so those are the ways, we look at the skills, yes, but

Mike McDonald:

I'll come back to my client.

Mike McDonald:

And we'll put the skills in one category.

Mike McDonald:

Once we've met those, we're going to also come back and we're going

Mike McDonald:

to look at that personality.

Mike McDonald:

So we use behavioral interviewing and our interviewing process.

Mike McDonald:

So we'll set up because past behavior is a better indicator of future performance.

Mike McDonald:

So we'll also identify and qualify those that's in most job description.

Mike McDonald:

Good, writing skills, good communication skills, right?

Mike McDonald:

What does that mean?

Mike McDonald:

Right?

Mike McDonald:

Let's, let's qualify that.

Mike McDonald:

Let's set up an anchor, right?

Mike McDonald:

And let's say maybe it's ambiguity.

Mike McDonald:

That's a big issue today, being able to deal with the change

Mike McDonald:

the world is throwing us.

Mike McDonald:

So we'll have the anchor of ambiguity.

Mike McDonald:

We'll set up questions that are indirect questions.

Mike McDonald:

Tell me about a time.

Mike McDonald:

So it's storytelling.

Mike McDonald:

Tell me a story about your experience in the past.

Mike McDonald:

I don't care if it was yesterday or 10 years ago.

Mike McDonald:

And from that story, you'd be surprised how much you'll find out about people.

Mike McDonald:

And then, , and so then ,we use that in conjunction with the skills

Mike McDonald:

and then we factor in the culture.

Mike McDonald:

We look at our client, we have our client look at themselves

Mike McDonald:

introspectively and saying, well, what are you going to provide this person?

Mike McDonald:

What are your skills?

Mike McDonald:

You say you want to hire a junior, hire a person you want to met.

Mike McDonald:

Are you in a position to mentor?

Mike McDonald:

Are you in a position to develop?

Mike McDonald:

Are you so busy closing business and wearing 3 different hats that

Mike McDonald:

you won't give that person what that person needs to be successful?

Mike McDonald:

And so, again, that that relates back to retention.

Mike McDonald:

You know, people don't feel value.

Mike McDonald:

So, those are that's our approach.

Mike McDonald:

We have a team of researchers, a very thorough approach, but we help our clients

Mike McDonald:

stand, understand, I guess, in two words.

Mike McDonald:

What you're hiring.

Mike McDonald:

Secondly, who you're hiring.

Mike McDonald:

Very important who you're hiring.

Freddy D:

Oh, absolutely.

Freddy D:

That's 100 percent because the reality is the cost of onboarding

Freddy D:

somebody is quite expensive.

Freddy D:

And then having that person quit in six months.

Freddy D:

Because they don't feel appreciated.

Freddy D:

The culture isn't there, et cetera.

Freddy D:

And now you've got to re onboard somebody.

Freddy D:

So the cost associated with all that stuff is astronomical.

Freddy D:

And a lot of businesses sometimes have that mindset.

Freddy D:

Well, you know, I'll just get the cheapest person in here because, it's not costing

Freddy D:

me that much money, but in the end it's really costing them a lot of money.

Mike McDonald:

A lot of studies done on that, Freddie.

Mike McDonald:

And that, and one of them that comes to mind is and it's pretty substantial.

Mike McDonald:

It said that the cost of hiring one person is one and a half

Mike McDonald:

times their on target earnings.

Mike McDonald:

So if the person is going to make 100 000 that year, it costs you

Mike McDonald:

150, 000 to make that mistake.

Mike McDonald:

Why?

Mike McDonald:

Well, you think about the time you spent recruiting or hiring a recruiter?

Mike McDonald:

You think about the time you spent onboarding, training people?

Mike McDonald:

How about the loss of business?

Mike McDonald:

He has a million dollar quota.

Mike McDonald:

Well, He's not productive.

Mike McDonald:

You lost six months.

Mike McDonald:

You just lost at 40 percent margin.

Mike McDonald:

How much money did you lose?

Mike McDonald:

So add all that together.

Mike McDonald:

And there's an equation and it comes up to about one and a half times the

Mike McDonald:

on target expense of proposition.

Freddy D:

Oh, absolutely.

Mike McDonald:

And also very demotivated.

Mike McDonald:

It also , demotivates a lot of people in the company.

Mike McDonald:

They start seeing people that don't fit.

Mike McDonald:

And that are let go and it, scares me, quite frankly.

Freddy D:

And then you can factor in, okay, let's say, it's a person

Freddy D:

and then you've got someone else that's training that person.

Freddy D:

So now you've got double loss of productivity because you've got

Freddy D:

that person doing the training.

Freddy D:

And if that person is not a good trainer, that sets up the new person for failure.

Freddy D:

So now they're frustrated and it just, it starts to snowballs and it's the

Freddy D:

culture just starts to fall apart.

Mike McDonald:

Right, exactly.

Freddy D:

So what tactics can be used to develop a culture of loyalty, there's

Freddy D:

a perfect segue into retaining people because, we're talking about the cost of

Freddy D:

onboarding and then if someone disappears.

Freddy D:

So let's talk about creating that culture to retain those people.

Freddy D:

What can be done?

Mike McDonald:

So companies today have to be willing to flex as the

Mike McDonald:

work culture shifts in new ways.

Mike McDonald:

COVID's had a tremendous impact on how, it's affected companies today,

Mike McDonald:

people working remote puts a lot more stress on our manager, a lot more

Mike McDonald:

difficulty in building a team, etc.

Mike McDonald:

And in ways that we also have to flex because we other ways

Mike McDonald:

that are going to come up.

Mike McDonald:

So I think that flexibility is really important.

Mike McDonald:

And I think I have to.

Mike McDonald:

This segues right into Freddie's book, which I brought with me, right?

Mike McDonald:

And Chapter, Retention, so, I'm going to quote what, what Freddie put in his

Mike McDonald:

book here from Carnegie, and it's, people work for money, but go the extra mile

Mike McDonald:

for recognition, praise, and rewards.

Mike McDonald:

So you go back to how do you build loyalty and how do you retain people?

Mike McDonald:

You build the right environment for them and you value them.

Mike McDonald:

And, that's going to really have great impact on that, if not everything, really.

Freddy D:

Yeah, one of my quotes in the book is, people will crawl through broken

Freddy D:

glass for appreciation and recognition.

Mike McDonald:

Right, yeah.

Freddy D:

And I toss that out to people and I say, am I wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

Freddy D:

I have not heard one person yet tell me that I was wrong, because it's true.

Freddy D:

As humans, we want to be appreciated, and we want to be recognized.

Freddy D:

And it's one thing to say, hey, Michael, thanks a lot for a great job.

Freddy D:

I appreciate it.

Freddy D:

And it's another thing to say, Hey, everybody, I want to take a moment

Freddy D:

to recognize Michael for his great effort that he's done with our

Freddy D:

companies, helped us everything else.

Freddy D:

It changes the dynamics.

Freddy D:

It changes the dynamics in the way you feel, and it changes the dynamics in how

Freddy D:

everybody else feels in the organization.

Mike McDonald:

\yeah, the awareness ,of keeping and it, ,it's so right.

Mike McDonald:

And that's because, again, the job seekers today.

Mike McDonald:

Are putting a lot of emphasis on the quality of life values, right?

Mike McDonald:

So, I want to work from home.

Mike McDonald:

, I want to reduce my travel.

Mike McDonald:

I want to have fewer hours.

Mike McDonald:

I want to take a longer vacation and you've got to have a company

Mike McDonald:

that flexes with that, to be able to provide and support.

Mike McDonald:

And that's going to build the loyalty.

Mike McDonald:

I have to tell you about an example.

Mike McDonald:

A company that I worked with 20 years ago, and I was always calling this particular,

Mike McDonald:

manager's people because I needed a certain skill and, he had about 10 people

Mike McDonald:

and I would call him, call them and I could never get anybody to take the job.

Mike McDonald:

No one, they'd all be always say, well, yeah, Mike, I'll think

Mike McDonald:

about it and they come back and so on their land and interest.

Mike McDonald:

So one day, about a year or so later, I happened to run into this guy at

Mike McDonald:

a conference, Autofact conference to make to Freddy, you don't

Mike McDonald:

remember this coming conference.

Mike McDonald:

And, I walked up to him and I said, John, I have to ask you a question.

Mike McDonald:

You know, every time I call your people up and I talk about a job, and

Mike McDonald:

I said, Hey, that sounds really good.

Mike McDonald:

And then I'll get a, I'll call 'em back and I'll say, well, now I changed my

Mike McDonald:

mind and I'm gonna stay where I'm at.

Mike McDonald:

And I thought, what is the secret sauce?

Mike McDonald:

I mean, what are you doing here that keeps that loyalty of people?

Mike McDonald:

And he said, yeah, quite frankly, Mike, it's small things, when I hire

Mike McDonald:

the employee, I usually out of my own pocket, we'll give him a hundred

Mike McDonald:

dollars to take his wife out to dinner.

Mike McDonald:

If the guys has some issue, because most of the people this is this

Mike McDonald:

position was for field service.

Mike McDonald:

So the guy was always on a plane.

Mike McDonald:

He would leave Sunday.

Mike McDonald:

That was the nature of the job and come back on Thursday away from his family.

Mike McDonald:

So, if he, if something came up, I would accommodate the person.

Mike McDonald:

And if they can, they would come to me and tell me, hey, Mike

Mike McDonald:

McDonald, Michael McDonald, call me and told me about this job.

Mike McDonald:

And they'd say, what do you think, John?

Mike McDonald:

And see, sometimes I would say, you know, that's a good job.

Mike McDonald:

You ought to think about it.

Mike McDonald:

And, they trusted him.

Mike McDonald:

And he kept it strictly confidential.

Mike McDonald:

But he said, I want people to want me to want to be loyal.

Mike McDonald:

And if they don't, then it's probably time for them to leave.

Mike McDonald:

Really a smart guy.

Mike McDonald:

And again, doing, back to your book, doing a lot of things that

Mike McDonald:

really built that loyalty and trust.

Freddy D:

It's the little things that are the big things.

Mike McDonald:

It really is.

Mike McDonald:

And it goes a long distance.

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

It's what I call the unexpected extra.

Freddy D:

It's, doing something, like giving that, hundred dollars

Freddy D:

to take the wife out to dinner.

Freddy D:

I mean, that's unexpected, that, that makes a person feel,

Freddy D:

wow, this is, a cool place.

Freddy D:

This guy's cool.

Freddy D:

And, that sets a precedent, a positive precedent.

Mike McDonald:

And when he'd hire the person, I didn't tell

Mike McDonald:

you, this is pretty interesting.

Mike McDonald:

He'd send the wife a dozen roses.

Mike McDonald:

Thank you.

Mike McDonald:

Welcoming her and him to our family.

Mike McDonald:

His name is company name, and that goes a long way, especially when

Mike McDonald:

you've got issues that come up that deal as people do in their family,

Mike McDonald:

and, you've got that support of that wife behind you or significant other.

Freddy D:

Right, so, so how can companies identify steps that they can take

Freddy D:

to turn their current employees into business superfans and promoting that

Freddy D:

business to everybody that they know?.

Mike McDonald:

Well, I think here again, it starts really to create the environment

Mike McDonald:

that supports people's values and, I would think, I think about, there was a,

Mike McDonald:

there was a theorist, psychotherapist, family marriage counselor that I, had

Mike McDonald:

read some of her books and basically she said for people to feel valued and

Mike McDonald:

to want to be part of a company or an organization, two things have to be there.

Mike McDonald:

Number one, they have to feel they're being listened to.

Mike McDonald:

Don't have to, agree with them.

Mike McDonald:

And then two, that you value them.

Mike McDonald:

You value their opinion.

Mike McDonald:

You don't have to agree with them.

Mike McDonald:

Those two things can be very powerful in developing the kind of spirit

Mike McDonald:

that a person is, and a company is for that matter, that will be turn

Mike McDonald:

them into supporting their company, wanting to be sponsoring their

Mike McDonald:

company and endorsing their companies.

Mike McDonald:

And, especially today with all the ways social media, the first thing a lot of

Mike McDonald:

people do is they'll go out and glass dory, find out what your people think,

Mike McDonald:

why they left, why they're staying.

Mike McDonald:

So it's really, those little things again, recognition.

Mike McDonald:

goes a long way and thanking them and building that environment that people

Mike McDonald:

feel that they've trusted and they talk about there that wins people over.

Mike McDonald:

I think also things that, having team sports and creating this

Mike McDonald:

environment of exciting place to be, it isn't just about a job, right?

Mike McDonald:

It's more.

Mike McDonald:

And again, I have to say, in this world we live in today, and a lot of

Mike McDonald:

younger people, they really look at that quality of life very, very importantly.

Freddy D:

100 percent true.

Freddy D:

And, you mentioned a good thing there was that letting people voice their

Freddy D:

opinions and keeping your mouth shut and whether because you may not agree with

Freddy D:

it, but you give them the recognition to be able to state their perception

Freddy D:

because an individual's perception is their reality, right or wrong.

Freddy D:

And that's how they see it.

Freddy D:

And, surprisingly, I've had experiences where I've had people

Freddy D:

talk about stuff and I completely did not agree with their perception.

Freddy D:

But as I thought about it, and I looked into it their perception

Freddy D:

made sense because of certain things that have taken place.

Freddy D:

And so you make some tweaks to those things and all of a sudden

Freddy D:

their perception starts changing into a more positive manner.

Freddy D:

So it's creating a culture where people feel comfortable to being

Freddy D:

able to go up to management and be able to suggest ideas or communicate

Freddy D:

their frustrations and everything else without the worry of a reprisal.

Mike McDonald:

Right.

Mike McDonald:

Exactly.

Mike McDonald:

And some, cultures are more in tune to that than others.

Mike McDonald:

and that's why I have to say, I'm promoting this guy's

Mike McDonald:

book as Ezra's book also.

Mike McDonald:

It's, God's a man.

Mike McDonald:

So how does it feel to work in a culture?

Mike McDonald:

How do you value it?

Mike McDonald:

And in some cultures, , unfortunately people can feel like they're

Mike McDonald:

invisible, within that culture and you have to help them see them as a

Mike McDonald:

valued contributor to the company.

Mike McDonald:

So it puts the onus on the manager and the company.

Mike McDonald:

To, do that.

Freddy D:

Yeah, because I've run into companies and talked with people.

Freddy D:

It says, well, you know, they should be grateful.

Freddy D:

I'm giving them a job.

Freddy D:

And I just shake my head.

Freddy D:

It says wait a minute, no employees, no business.

Freddy D:

So let's change that mindset because that's, not the right

Freddy D:

mindset and it comes across.

Freddy D:

And so now you got employees, they're doing the bare minimum because.

Freddy D:

They know that they're a commodity and there's no value, placed on them.

Mike McDonald:

And this, of course, as you experienced and I and, my

Mike McDonald:

career and companies I've worked with where you're dealing with people that

Mike McDonald:

are micromanagers, it extinguishes people, it extinguishes them, and

Mike McDonald:

they certainly don't feel valued.

Mike McDonald:

They don't feel like they have any ownership at all.

Mike McDonald:

This is the way you do it.

Mike McDonald:

This is my way or the highway.

Mike McDonald:

So how can people work and how long can they work in that kind of environment?

Mike McDonald:

Not very long.

Freddy D:

No, or you got an environment where, they get verbally trained.

Freddy D:

I mean,, here's a doozy.

Freddy D:

So you get into an environment where people are verbally trained.

Freddy D:

So no SOPs, standing operating procedures, no scope of

Freddy D:

work, no none of that stuff.

Freddy D:

It's a verbal training, and then when mistakes are made, because we only

Freddy D:

remember 20 percent of what we're told, they start chastising the people, you

Freddy D:

did this wrong, this is wrong, why didn't you remember to do this and that?

Freddy D:

And now the person starts to feel belittled, and it just

Freddy D:

snowballs, it completely snowballs.

Mike McDonald:

And I have to say, and this is what I and, talked at the beginning

Mike McDonald:

of our conversation, what we do and how we do our, our search process is keeping

Mike McDonald:

the candidate informed, helping the candidate understand the environment.

Mike McDonald:

So, how many times, and maybe this has happened to you a couple of times,

Mike McDonald:

you go in, you're told something in the interview process, and your first

Mike McDonald:

week, you get in there, you're like, oh, this isn't what I signed up for.

Freddy D:

Yeah,

Mike McDonald:

They never told me this.

Mike McDonald:

And so I think it goes back to this.

Mike McDonald:

So the understanding the culture is on the ownership is to on the

Mike McDonald:

candidate and this is a whole different subject looking at the culture.

Mike McDonald:

He's getting him.

Mike McDonald:

He or she is getting himself into.

Mike McDonald:

So back to this book, the gods of management.

Mike McDonald:

He does a real great job.

Mike McDonald:

Charles Handy, years of experience in organizational development.

Mike McDonald:

And I'll give you an example.

Mike McDonald:

He used the Greek God, the Zeus God, and maybe this is, I'm

Mike McDonald:

sure you've experienced this.

Mike McDonald:

So in the Zeus culture, the symbol of the Zeus culture, is a spider web and Zeus

Mike McDonald:

is the spider in the center of the web.

Mike McDonald:

And it's called a trust culture.

Mike McDonald:

So everything, and this is usually an entrepreneur.

Mike McDonald:

Everything's in Zeus's head.

Mike McDonald:

You never know when you're doing a good job, but you know, real

Mike McDonald:

quickly when you're doing a bad job.

Freddy D:

Right

Mike McDonald:

And Zeus comes in on Friday.

Mike McDonald:

And he says, we're going to do it this way.

Mike McDonald:

Right?

Mike McDonald:

And everyone rallies to the ship.

Mike McDonald:

We're going to do that.

Mike McDonald:

Then Monday comes in and says, Nah, I changed my mind.

Mike McDonald:

We're going to do it this way.

Mike McDonald:

And, how you're valued in that culture is how Zeus sees you.

Mike McDonald:

Zeus likes you.

Mike McDonald:

You don't even have to be performing very well, and you'll do well.

Mike McDonald:

I'm sure you know, people, and we know people, Freddie, that have had that kind

Mike McDonald:

of, you wake up one day and say, how'd this guy get to be a vice president?

Mike McDonald:

Right.

Mike McDonald:

He couldn't even sell.

Mike McDonald:

Well, it's I guess the Peter principle.

Mike McDonald:

It's the Zeus culture, right?

Mike McDonald:

And that's the way Zeus promotes him.

Mike McDonald:

And all of a sudden, Zeus company gets bought, and next thing you

Mike McDonald:

know, the guy is a superstar.

Mike McDonald:

Now on the other hand, he talks about the culture that's, he

Mike McDonald:

would call the Apollo culture.

Mike McDonald:

And the symbol there is a Greek temple, because there's pillars.

Mike McDonald:

And when you're in that culture, is a, is all about fitting in.

Mike McDonald:

So you're a round peg and a round hole.

Mike McDonald:

And you're hired for a If no one's ahead of you and you're politically correct,

Mike McDonald:

it's hard to move over to another pillar by him because it threatens everybody.

Mike McDonald:

So here you want to be creative.

Mike McDonald:

Here's a covering book.

Mike McDonald:

Let's stay in those lines and that's what you're going to get.

Mike McDonald:

And there's only so many guys that are going to make over their quota

Mike McDonald:

because it's not about standing out.

Mike McDonald:

It's about fitting in.

Mike McDonald:

So you can imagine Freddie, you take a manager from that culture, put him in

Mike McDonald:

a Zeus culture, or vice versa, right?

Mike McDonald:

Or let's go to the fact, if you're an employee and you go in and you're

Mike McDonald:

used to a Zeus culture, or, and then you go into a Apollo culture, you

Mike McDonald:

go, what, wow, where am I at, right?

Mike McDonald:

But people don't think about it as important as it is.

Mike McDonald:

It's great book for people that are looking for a job or

Mike McDonald:

people that are also managing.

Mike McDonald:

So how do you move and work in that culture?

Freddy D:

Yeah, absolutely.

Freddy D:

Correct.

Freddy D:

I mean, culture is everything in a company and people will stay in an

Freddy D:

organization because it's a great culture and they feel appreciated.

Freddy D:

They, happy to do their jobs and it becomes not so much about money anymore.

Freddy D:

It's about the fact that they enjoy what they're doing.

Freddy D:

They enjoy working for that company and it's a completely

Freddy D:

different mindset than it is.

Freddy D:

Oh, I got to go to this office again and I got to go and do

Freddy D:

this, sit here for eight hours.

Freddy D:

Do this crap.

Freddy D:

It's a different mindset.

Mike McDonald:

Right, I can tell you that after hiring, many people over the last

Mike McDonald:

30 years now, many different companies, different cultures, the gloom that

Mike McDonald:

holds people together is feeling valued.

Mike McDonald:

And, money isn't the only driver.

Mike McDonald:

And I guess, I think about the movie, when you build it, they will come, right?

Mike McDonald:

When you build it, they will come.

Mike McDonald:

And , I think it's the same thing when you build the right environment, people will

Mike McDonald:

come to that environment, world spread, the employees in that company, they'll

Mike McDonald:

talk to other people, you'll have a draw

Freddy D:

will become business superfans will be promoting it, other

Freddy D:

businesses that work in conjunction with that business will be saying,

Freddy D:

hey man, that's a great place.

Mike McDonald:

How do I get to work for them?

Freddy D:

Yeah.

Freddy D:

And it just, it starts the machine rolling and, that's so important that

Freddy D:

it's unfortunately, some large companies have got that figured out and then some

Freddy D:

small companies have got that figured out.

Freddy D:

But a lot of times they're really small companies that are medium sized

Freddy D:

companies don't have it figured it out.

Mike McDonald:

Right.

Mike McDonald:

And I think it started, you talked, we talked a little bit about the

Mike McDonald:

interviewing process that we use.

Mike McDonald:

I think the interviewing process itself, there's a here and

Mike McDonald:

now in the interview process.

Mike McDonald:

So what you get in the process while you're interviewing is pretty much what

Mike McDonald:

you're going to get if you hire the person or what the person is going to

Mike McDonald:

get if they're hired by the company.

Mike McDonald:

So if you're going, if you're sending your resume in and

Mike McDonald:

you're looking at an opportunity.

Mike McDonald:

And the company keeps pushing off changing the time that you've

Mike McDonald:

scheduled right to interview..

Mike McDonald:

They bring you into the interview and it's supposed to be.

Mike McDonald:

An hour, you set aside and all of a sudden it's a half hour, right?

Mike McDonald:

So all that experience should start to make you think about,

Mike McDonald:

what am I getting myself into here?

Mike McDonald:

Because if I get this in the interview, what am I going

Mike McDonald:

to get this if they hire me?

Mike McDonald:

Are they giving me the scoop, right?

Mike McDonald:

The right scoop.

Mike McDonald:

And I think it's so I think it's important to have an interview process that's That

Mike McDonald:

values people as they move, because most of the people you want are employed,

Mike McDonald:

or from a competitor, so you have to value them, because they talk to other

Mike McDonald:

people, and it makes it really difficult for companies to recover from that.

Mike McDonald:

I don't think they realize the impact.

Mike McDonald:

They say we're a separation of six, but I think it's closer than that.

Mike McDonald:

And people talk, especially in certain industries, the industry that I

Mike McDonald:

came from, Freddie, I mean, that it expanded, then it contracted, but

Mike McDonald:

people stayed in touch and word spreads.

Mike McDonald:

What's the first thing you do when you're hiring someone, you call someone up.

Mike McDonald:

Hey, Freddie, are you interested?

Mike McDonald:

I'm over here.

Mike McDonald:

Would you like to come over and work with me?

Mike McDonald:

Why?

Mike McDonald:

Because you know who they are, whatever Freddie is, I know I can throw anything

Mike McDonald:

at him and he'll learn it and he'll, you know, the personality really.

Mike McDonald:

And there's a great instrument that we use.

Mike McDonald:

It's we recommend it's called the OAD, Organizational Analysis and Design.

Mike McDonald:

It's a simple test.

Mike McDonald:

It's a survey.

Mike McDonald:

It's not a personality thing.

Mike McDonald:

It's a survey and on skills.

Mike McDonald:

And what it looks at is, it looks at seven traits, assertiveness,

Mike McDonald:

extroversion, patience, and detail.

Mike McDonald:

Then it looks at versatility, creativity, and emotional control.

Mike McDonald:

Those seven traits graphed out.

Mike McDonald:

And now you get a pattern of a person, of their, of what

Mike McDonald:

they like, and how they'll fit.

Mike McDonald:

And if you're looking for a hunter, a sales guy you're going to find

Mike McDonald:

someone up in the upper right.

Mike McDonald:

He's going to be a generalist, but he's also going to be socially oriented.

Mike McDonald:

If you're looking for a program, he's probably going to be a specialist on

Mike McDonald:

the bottom, and he's going to be a, technically oriented person, right?

Mike McDonald:

And so, by giving a survey before you finalize the interview, you get a pattern

Mike McDonald:

of someone, and now you can explore that with them and find out a little bit more.

Mike McDonald:

If hiring a hunter, I want someone that's very high assertive,

Mike McDonald:

extroversion, patience , not so much, because I want him to close.

Mike McDonald:

Detail, he's probably not going to be that detailed.

Mike McDonald:

You're going to have to hunt him down for his expense account, because

Mike McDonald:

he's looking to do business, right?

Mike McDonald:

He's a hunter.

Mike McDonald:

And if you want the farmer, I hate to use that, but people identify with it, someone

Mike McDonald:

that you're assigning accounts to develop those accounts, you're probably hiring

Mike McDonald:

someone that has, is assertive somewhat.

Mike McDonald:

more extroverted or as extroverted, but more patient and more detailed because

Mike McDonald:

he's managing an existing account.

Mike McDonald:

But the last three are very important.

Mike McDonald:

And that is versatility, some people are more versatile than others.

Mike McDonald:

So I give you something to do and your job is X, Y, Z.

Mike McDonald:

And then I come in and I say, gee, Fred, could you help me out?

Mike McDonald:

I knew you took a couple of courses in accounting.

Mike McDonald:

Could you look at these account payable things and help me with that?

Mike McDonald:

So you throw stuff at them and they're versatile.

Mike McDonald:

They can do it and they don't mind doing it, right?

Mike McDonald:

They have that built in.

Mike McDonald:

That's how they're wired.

Mike McDonald:

Other people.

Mike McDonald:

What you see is what you get.

Mike McDonald:

You give them something.

Mike McDonald:

That's what I was hired for.

Mike McDonald:

They don't deviate at all.

Mike McDonald:

If you change it, it's disruptive, right?

Mike McDonald:

That's a personality trait, right?

Mike McDonald:

So if you're a startup company or you're doing a company that you're going to

Mike McDonald:

go through some change, you better hire that guy with high versatility.

Mike McDonald:

Also, emotional control.

Mike McDonald:

If you want someone that's , managing people, you want a high practicality,

Mike McDonald:

but a balanced emotion, too.

Mike McDonald:

But you don't want someone that's totally emotional, you

Mike McDonald:

want control on that rating.

Mike McDonald:

And then the last thing, creativity.

Mike McDonald:

I give someone something to do, and it doesn't work out, that's okay.

Mike McDonald:

Fred, you come back and say, you know, this isn't working out,

Mike McDonald:

but I got, I thought about this.

Mike McDonald:

What if we try this, right?

Mike McDonald:

That creativity is so important.

Mike McDonald:

Those three traits are the most important, I think, in any hire,

Mike McDonald:

especially in today's world.

Mike McDonald:

Very important, but it's a great instrument and those kind of tools people

Mike McDonald:

can incorporate in their hiring process.

Mike McDonald:

And it's going to, it's going to improve their hiring decision phenomenon.

Freddy D:

Right.

Freddy D:

Okay.

Freddy D:

We'll have to have another conversation about, from the employee perspective.

Mike McDonald:

Well, thank you.

Freddy D:

Yeah, So how can people find you, Michael?

Mike McDonald:

My website, it's M W M search.

Mike McDonald:

com.

Mike McDonald:

So M W M search.

Mike McDonald:

com.

Mike McDonald:

And my phone number is 831 646 0300.

Mike McDonald:

I'm on the West Coast, but I work throughout North America.

Mike McDonald:

And, that's the best way to get through to me.

Freddy D:

Okay.

Freddy D:

And what do you have for our listeners?

Freddy D:

What are you offering our listeners here.

Mike McDonald:

Well, I think if they're interested in anything I've talked about,

Mike McDonald:

as far as if I can help them in hiring people, help them in any way that way.

Mike McDonald:

I happy to give them 20 minute consulting free.

Mike McDonald:

Just call me up and we'll talk, if I can't help you, I can probably

Mike McDonald:

point you in the right direction.

Freddy D:

Well, Michael, it was great having you on the

Freddy D:

business superfan podcast.

Freddy D:

I hope you had a great time here and thank you much.

Freddy D:

And we look forward to having you on the show in the near future.

Mike McDonald:

I love your book, Fred.

Mike McDonald:

Thank you.

Mike McDonald:

Appreciate it, buddy.

Mike McDonald:

Thank you.

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